Unlocking Pain Relief: Shane Brennan’s Journey to Recovery
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*A transcription of this episode can be found at the bottom of this page
This podcast is for educational purposes only. The views expressed do not constitute medical advice and are general in nature. You should obtain specific advice from a qualified health professional before acting on any information within this podcast.
Chronic pain can feel like an unsolvable puzzle, but Shane Brennan’s journey proves that pain relief is possible with the right approach. As the founder of The Calm Potential, Shane transformed his life through pain science, meditation, and movement. His story highlights the importance of understanding the nervous system and emotional well-being alongside physical treatment.
From Active to Immobilised: The Onset of Chronic Pain
Shane was an active, sport-loving individual until, at 18, he began experiencing lower back pain that worsened over time. By 26, he was nearly bedridden with debilitating pain from Ankylosing Spondylitis, a condition where the body attacks itself. Traditional treatments, including multiple cortisone injections, failed to provide lasting relief, leading him to explore alternative solutions.
The Turning Point: Understanding Pain Science
A pivotal moment came when a physiotherapist introduced Shane to Explain Pain by Lorimer Moseley and David Butler. This book shifted his perspective, helping him realise pain wasn’t just a physical issue—it was deeply connected to his nervous system. He learned pain is influenced by how the brain perceives and interprets signals, not just damage to the body.
Pain Relief Through Meditation and Movement
With this new understanding, Shane turned to meditation and graded exposure therapy to retrain his nervous system. Key techniques included:
✅ Yoga Nidra Meditation – Improved sleep quality, crucial for pain relief.
✅ Mindful Movement – Awareness of how bodily sensation respond to movement in a non-judgmental.
✅ Graded Exposure to Movement – Gradually increasing movement without triggering flare-ups.
✅ Breathwork – Calming techniques to shift the body out of a pain-protective state.
These methods dramatically reduced his pain, eventually eliminating the need for painkillers.
The Emotional Link to Pain
Beyond physical practices, Shane realised emotional suppression played a major role in his pain. During a 10-day silent meditation retreat, he confronted deep-seated self-criticism and emotional tension. Releasing these emotions led to profound physical relief, reinforcing the mind-body connection in pain management.
Lessons for Anyone Seeking Pain Relief
Shane’s journey offers hope and practical strategies for managing persistent pain:
🔹 Education is empowerment – Understanding pain science changes how you experience pain.
🔹 Small, consistent actions matter – Progress comes from gradual improvements, not quick fixes.
🔹 Your mind is a powerful tool – Breathwork, meditation, and stress management are key to pain relief.
🔹 Pain does not mean damage – Shifting your mindset reduces fear and improves function.
Final Thoughts: You Have More Control Than You Think
Shane’s story proves pain relief is achievable through education, patience, and a holistic approach. If you or someone you know is struggling with chronic pain, take inspiration from his journey and explore techniques that address both the body and mind.
Want to Take Control of Your Pain?
If you're ready to dive deeper into pain science and practical pain relief strategies, join my Learn More, Hurt Less interactive online group course. This course will help you:
✅ Understand why pain persists and how to retrain your nervous system.
✅ Develop personalised strategies for managing and reducing pain.
✅ Gain support from a community of people on the same journey.
Take the first step towards lasting relief—sign up to the waiting list today and start transforming your relationship with pain!
Introducing… PAIN COACH
My new application focused on allowing people with chronic pain to reclaim their life.
Full Episode Transcript:
00:00:00.08
Speaker
ive I've always been massively into sport. I was just up for all types of um adventure. the The first time my body, let's call it, started to let me down when I was 18, 19,
00:00:13.66
Speaker
You know, it wasn't um a dramatic change, but at 26, that was a dramatic change. Like that was, you know, close to being bedridden because of the severity of the pain. And then, you know, my world really did close in. I'm just angry because I didn't know why my body was attacking me. And you'll probably laugh at this conversation. I said to him, look, I've actually always not a spondylitis affecting my spine, a tendency to get that sacroiliitis as well.
00:00:43.58
Speaker
common flare ups of patellar tendonitis, plantar fasciitis, spursitis behind the shoulders. And he just went, wait, wait, I need you to read a book. You don't have all these conditions. You've, you've to think of it more like you have a problem with your nervous system. And I devoured that book in the night and I was just like,
00:01:03.51
Speaker
You know, everything I was learning about meditation matched up with the neuroscience of how a sensation in the body is felt and interpreted by the brain. It brought meditation from this esoteric area into like, oh this this matches with what these pain researchers are saying. And so that was my big light bulb moment where I'm doing the right things, I just need to know more about my wiring.
00:01:36.49
Speaker
In this episode of Pain Coach, we sit down with Shane Brennan, the founder of The Calm Potential. Shane has personally conquered chronic pain using a powerful combination of pain science education, graded exposure, and meditation. Shane teaches breath work and meditation to help others reach a sense of calm and manage pain.
00:02:01.53
Speaker
This podcast is for educational purposes only. The views expressed in this podcast do not constitute medical advice and are general in nature. You should obtain specific advice from a qualified health professional before acting on any of the information within this podcast.
00:02:20.93
Speaker
Shane, what I'd love listeners to learn about you is your story through chronic pain. So what I want you to do is if you can take us right back to before pain started and just tell us a little bit about Shane, what your life was like at the time.
00:02:39.22
Speaker
Yeah, so the point where I noticed something was wrong was about 18 and that's where things, you know, the lower back pain started to become quite dominant and couldn't figure out why. I was very active, played a lot of sports. I had a very chill personality.
00:03:02.58
Speaker
which we'll maybe explore later. It was definitely chill on the surface but then I you know i went from being yeah quite active and you know just in my late teens and then into this place where it was It was wasn't an overwhelming pain. It was kind of a six or seven out of 10 to use that scale. And so when I went to get diagnosed and get help with that, and I was diagnosed with ankylosing spondylitis, but the guy said, you're active, you're playing a lot of sport, um which was good advice. I think at the time he says, I don't want to give you any medication. I just want you to keep
00:03:44.46
Speaker
doing what you're doing. And so I pretty much just got on with life then. And it wasn't until eight years later at 26, I just moved to Australia. And a few months into that, um my time here, then I was doing quite a lot of running, quite a lot of them swimming. I did the bronze medallion. So training in that lifesaver program. So again, very active life. But then I just woke up one morning and deep inside my hip, which I now know is the sacroiliac joint. I had a tremendous amount of pain and which meant it took me a long time, like almost 20 minutes to get my shoes on that morning. And from then I didn't really associate because it wasn't in my back. I didn't associate it with the condition. So I went through a whole new process and a long process, maybe over a year and a half trying to get that diagnosed. Many
00:04:44.52
Speaker
cortisol injections, things like that. And nothing was working. And so that was quite a depressing time because, you know, you'll understand that joint, it pretty much needs to move with every movement in your body. So it's not like when your back is sore, you can usually still go for a long walk or maybe even a run. But this was, I was dragging my right leg around with me. And so to be 26 and go from active like that, and then to you know I remember one day the bus was pulling up and I couldn't even run the kind of 10, 15 meters to let him know I wanted to get on. And you know yeah there's just a bitterness and anger and a frustration that creeps in. and And so that's where I got up to. And then it was about getting re-diagnosed, but this time I was sent and to a rheumatologist, whereas I wasn't before.
00:05:41.27
Speaker
Yeah, right. So it it just, I just want to touch base. Were you diagnosed when you were young or it wasn't until later that you found out that you had ankylosing spondylitis? So I had, it was suspected and then I went for, I think it's a, it's a, is it a gene test? Um, and, uh, um,
00:06:09.41
Speaker
and the X-ray and both of them came back inconclusive. So that's when the specialist kind of said, this is what I suspect, but you're moving well, you keep up this level up of activity. And so we it we didn't go any further than that point. Yeah. Okay. And then it wasn't until you down the track, you went to see a rheumatologist that you were diagnosed with AS.
00:06:37.44
Speaker
Yeah, well, actually it was, I went to this guy, Dr. Tom Cross, and he was the first guy who, not a rheumatologist, but just looked at me and was like, he had me jumping up and down the corridor and he's like, there's something really wrong here. And he suspected it was AS and that's when he sent the letter to the rheumatologist.
00:07:00.70
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. It's, I find it fascinating because I, you know, I see people and I work with people with chronic pain and unfortunately, ankleizing spondylitis is, is usually takes about eight years from symptoms to when you're actually diagnosed with the condition. And some, some of my chronic back pain patients that I've seen have ended up being diagnosed and I'm saying very few. I've sent a few away for the test and very few come back with it, but it's something that is often missed. So yeah, it's not an uncommon story. So tell tell me, like you touched on your physical um
00:07:50.01
Speaker
activities and hobbies prior, but can you can you let let us know what that kind of was, what level that looked like when you were younger growing up and and your experience of losing some of that function and and what it what it led to, the the distress and the frustration that comes with that.
00:08:12.10
Speaker
Yeah, look, i've I've always been massively into sport, just, you know, playing sports. I wasn't at any elite level or anything. I just really enjoyed it. But it was soccer and Irish sport called hurling and then trying new stuff like when it became easier to do things like fly to ski and snowboard and things like that. I was just up for all types of adventure.
00:08:40.87
Speaker
And so, yeah yeah you know, the the first time my body, let's call it sad to let me down when I was 18, 19, you know, it wasn't um a dramatic change, but at 26 that was a dramatic change. Like that was, you know, close to being bedridden because of the severity of the pain. And then, you know, my world really did close in because a lot of those was and activities i was getting used to i was just in australia so i was loving the ocean loving swimming that's why i wanted to do that lifesaver course and that's quite a full-on course you're you know that's four days a week and you're treading water all weekend thats how it's it's a beautiful way to spend your time but then to have the rug pulled under that and to go
00:09:28.88
Speaker
you know, like physically lifting my leg around with me, you know, is just the the worst feeling, like very depressing, very, I'm just angry because I didn't know why my body was attacking me. And like the whole talk around autoimmune disease is like your immune system's attacking something, but it shouldn't be. And, you know, scratching my head, why all the time? Yeah.
00:09:58.78
Speaker
Yeah, for those that don't and so like understand what we're talking about, ankylosing spondylitis is an autoimmune condition. that is It's a systemic arthritis, so where your body, for whatever reason, attacks some of the joints, um especially in AS, it seems to be the spine and the sacroiliac joint, which you had pain in and around.
00:10:22.62
Speaker
So tell where to from there. like eight Obviously that was quite a low point, but you you can look back on that now in in some degree of recovery. I don't know what that is, but we're about to find out. Where to from there? What did you what did you do?
00:10:41.03
Speaker
you So like I thought like many people, you know, you get a disease, there's a treatment and it's done and dusted. I didn't realize there's this whole world of chronic pain where people have really poor outcomes and it can ruin their lives in many ways.
00:10:57.84
Speaker
So I put all my faith in the rheumatologist, he said, I'll give you this, tried it for a few months, didn't work, gives moves me up to the next level of medication, tried it for a few months, didn't work. And then when we were about to embark on, them you know, biologics,
00:11:16.08
Speaker
I started to notice that I was doing a lot of stuff in parallel that was giving me a lot more relief than I felt the medication was. I was starting to just be really curious about my body, little bits of movement here and there.
00:11:33.24
Speaker
I started to use a meditation practice called yoga nidra. So I'd come home from work, be very angry, very disappointed with my body, and then I'd lie down, listen to that yoga nidra. And that improved my sleep quality massive massively. And so when your sleep quality is crack, you know, life just gets so much harder to to cope with.
00:11:57.88
Speaker
So when that started improving, I started to have a bit more energy to just like move my ankle, my knee, start playing around with my hip, doing little hip hinges on my chair, just to, cause that motion felt really good. And then, you know, the more I use that yoga knee dry, then ramped it up to twice a day and these little bits of movement, I was able to get on a static bike.
00:12:25.64
Speaker
And, you know, I do that every morning. And that just it felt like it was flushing the inflammation out of my body. And so I started to really focus in on some of those that that gentle mindful movement, that that amount of meditation. And I started to see what was like 110 consuming my life started to drop down to maybe 60, 70 percent.
00:12:53.07
Speaker
a Yeah, yeah. And then the physical pain symptoms as well, what were they doing? Were they but i reducing because of these practices or was it just sort of helping some of those secondary things like distress and and those things?
00:13:11.64
Speaker
No, they were noticeably reducing like they were, you know, what would maybe last two, three hours in the morning felt like it was more 30 minutes, 40 minutes.
00:13:24.06
Speaker
When it would come on very strong in the evening, it was, which would make you start to think you're going to have a really poor night's sleep. I then had these tools, so I wasn't getting as worked up about it. Because when it comes at you every day, you just think, is this going to be forever?
00:13:42.64
Speaker
And so your mind really settles in on that. and But then I started to feel I had tools that were helping me and I wasn't dependent on, you know, I felt like a bit of a lab rat going back to the rheumatologist. I'll try this and you have to go for all these other tests alongside it.
00:14:01.09
Speaker
liver function test and then I had to take folic acid because you know you just feel like an experiment whereas when I was playing with my movement stuff I felt like I was the the guy doing the experimenting and it felt more fun and intuitive.
00:14:18.49
Speaker
Yeah, right. Yeah. Look, I think many people can relate to that sort of experience about feeling like a bit of a lab rat because some of these conditions, they don't really have great treatments for often. And and that i I still think that you should be guided by you know a rheumatologist and the medical system for sure. But I think sometimes the treatments, unfortunately, aren't always satisfactory for for patients.
00:14:48.00
Speaker
that are experiencing the symptoms. So what what what led you to start doing meditation and and those kind of movements? Was there a particular yeah light bulb moment that that made you think that that was the right thing to do? Well, it was actually that my sister, she went to train as a ballet dancer in England and she developed rheumatoid arthritis during that.
00:15:18.16
Speaker
and program and then she had to drop out of that college and she had been using she had been quite into yoga and had introduced me to yoga and I remembered one time she got me to do a yoga nidra before an exam and I had a completely like unconscious black night's sleep. I remember it really well and waking up the next day feeling amazing and yeah going into the exam and so that that was always in the back of my head and that's why when i was lying there like i love reading but i was actually getting bored of reading because it was all i could do and then i'd play guitar lying down and then i just i moved on to or maybe i'll go back to that that meditation you know if i can leave my body you know that would be pretty good so or i could have that unconscious night sleep you know i'd i love one of those as well so
00:16:12.46
Speaker
And after she and went on medication, she actually started training as a PT and a yoga teacher and a Pilates teacher. So she she seeing her valuing movement as well was very powerful for me. And then so I knew to take some of that along with me.
00:16:35.15
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. Right. Okay. That makes sense. Your sister's experience with her own condition and sort of led you down that path and you were getting results, I guess. So it sort of drives you and and spurs you on to pursue that in a to a larger degree.
00:16:52.31
Speaker
um I believe your story is not uncommon to Lauren's, one of the guests that has been on the show, where at some stage you learnt about the science around pain. Can you tell us how that happened? Yeah, that was a really nice moment, actually, because a lot of things were falling into place, but they just weren't connecting right. And I actually I'd say in the scheme of things, my pain was maybe down to a 40, a four out of 10. And so it's just like, you know, I'm definitely not where I was. I'm getting better, but I'm not there yet. And so I said, right, I'll go back to a physio and I'll just chat to him. Like, I want to start taking care of my body as well. I've done a lot on my own, but I want to i want some guidance. And I went in and you'll probably laugh at this conversation. I said to him, look,
00:17:49.73
Speaker
I thought it was not a spondylitis affecting my spine. I have a tendency to get that sacroiliitis as well. common flare-ups of patellar tendonitis, plantar fasciitis, bursitis behind the shoulders. And he just went, wait, wait, I need you to read a book, okay? I'm going to get you this book. And he gave me that explained pain book. And he goes, you need to understand that you don't have all these conditions. You've used to think of it more like you have a problem with your nervous system or your immune system. So go read that book.
00:18:26.63
Speaker
and we can chat about it again. And I devoured that book in a night and I was just like, you know, everything I was learning about meditation matched up with the neuroscience of how a sensation in the body is felt and interpreted by the brain. And because a lot of mindfulness ah is around that non-reactivity, non-judgment, things like that. And so it just kind of, it bought meditation from this esoteric,
00:18:59.40
Speaker
area into like oh this this matches with what these pain researchers are saying and that book is very accessible very nice to read fun diagrams not dense in any way so it was just like then you want to know more. And the guys who wrote that book, Mosley and Butler, they have a lot of good stuff online like talks for 40 minutes an hour. And so that just started to reinforce it. And so that was my big light bulb moment where I'm doing the right things. I just need to know more about my wiring and then
00:19:37.75
Speaker
it gave me a confidence that I was going in the right direction rather at that time I was doubting could I ever fully be recovered relieved or symptom free however you might want to say it yeah yeah yeah that's ah it's funny when you when you said you come it came in rattling off all the diagnoses um I do I do uh I do laugh and I can relate to that. I have many clients that, you know, well-meaning and well, you know, they just want to take control of their own health and they come in and they're well-read and they've, you know, they've they've researched all their symptoms and they come come in with a particular diagnosis or or a big list of diagnosis like you were explaining. and i think
00:20:25.80
Speaker
that That curiosity probably was what led you to be open to to learning more around pain science and and Mosley's and and Butler's work in that Explained Pain book. what what was it So you touched on a little bit around it, but what do you think the main ingredients in that that book or this understanding of pain, what were the paradigm shifts that really transformed the way that you looked at your condition? It probably put the mind more in the driving seat. I always thought I had like a very physical condition, you know, like I know it's here, I know it's there, I know it's there, and then it was kind of
00:21:14.57
Speaker
going, okay, it's my interpretation of all this. And that just completely reinforces any meditative discipline as well. So, you know, those two then started to interlock. And then I started to go, well, I can use my mind to understand my body differently. And, you know, anytime the sensations were strong, I'd just use calming meditations on those areas of the body And so I'm changing that relationship with those areas. And it started to get so fluent for me because a lot of what they talk about is, you know, these well-established pathways. They're just playing all the time. And then you have to
00:21:58.51
Speaker
you know, with this new perspective, can you shift that? And so, yeah, I started to intervene with that new perspective. So that was a big part. And also just that there's thresholds of movement, like a way to recover is to, you know, you don't just stop moving and lie down and accept it.
00:22:21.20
Speaker
You know, you find these new thresholds is can you walk for a kilometer? What's it like then? Okay, that was too much. Can you try 800 meters? Can you try 600? Okay, 600 is your new threshold.
00:22:35.82
Speaker
Let's do that for a few days. And I just did that with pretty much every joint in my body because I had this, it was, it was really fun to me. I know a lot of people and a lot of people I work with don't find that fun, but any little amount of progress when you've had your movement taken away is incredible. Whereas people want these giant leaps, but it's usually more like,
00:23:00.43
Speaker
gradually exposing the nervous system to a bit more over time. And that's what gets results. None of these great leaps. Yeah, for sure. For sure. Were you resistant at all initially? Because many, many people, when you sort of start to open up a little bit about, like everyone thinks of pain as a very physical body and there's, there's nothing more to it. It's just a signal from your body to your brain. And it's a sort of one way street.
00:23:30.93
Speaker
Did you, and then when you open up and you unpack, the the brain has a role to play and the nervous system has a role to play in the production of that. do A lot of people get a little bit resistant and I wonder whether you had any resistance throughout that journey or that paradigm shift.
00:23:51.44
Speaker
Yeah, I'd say I would have been a lot more resistant if meditation hadn't been working for me so well. That was probably the the the bridge that got me there because you can use mind over matter in a lot of those circumstances. And when you sit each day, you start to see that the mind is just full of crap. And then you start to go, well, maybe some of that crap is about these parts of my body. Like, do I have to accept that as true all the time? And when you're meditating, it allows you to step back and see. And so I just sat in meditation and watched those sensations. And I saw that they were changing all the time, that they
00:24:38.58
Speaker
They weren't just, him or they'd move around my body, that they'd fluctuate. And I think what's really nice about the Explain Pain book is when they divide it up into mechanical, thermal and chemical sensors, you kind of go, okay, well, what?
00:24:56.49
Speaker
anything that's an outside of them, I'm probably making up. And so I used to, you know, a lot of people say, oh, this pain is killing me, or it's like a stabbing in my back, you know, these violent metaphors, but they're all constructs of the mind. They're all our imagination going, oh,
00:25:15.82
Speaker
I need to convey how sore I am to someone else. So I'll use these violent terminology, but that's not once you start to m drop below those labels and try to find, okay, well, what is the chemical sensor sending to my brain? What is the mechanical one sending? What is the thermal one? And then you start to feel you know this playfulness around, oh, there's just loads of things happening on my body all the time. and I don't have to be scared of them all the time. Yeah, yeah i can I can nearly hear someone that's listening to this screaming at the screaming at you, hearing you speak, because you have experienced it. But you know a lot of people will be thinking, Shane, you're telling me that I'm manufacturing my pain, that I'm making it up, that it's not real. What would you say to them?
00:26:08.84
Speaker
ah it It is 100% real because the mind is so powerful. And once you can honor how powerful the mind is, then you can start to master it. But before that point, yeah, you're kind of just a slave to your thoughts. So the pain is definitely real. But damn how you approach it can can be changed.
00:26:36.19
Speaker
and I'd say that that's probably the crux of it because I don't want any, I suppose it's a hard statement to hear, you know, it's all in your head. But there's an there's a truth to that, but that's even scarier because most of us are afraid to sit with our own thoughts. So yeah it was just that I had that parallel education and meditation that allowed me to connect the dots on this.
00:27:05.08
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I find it fascinating. I mean, and and inspiring to hear your story, but I am fascinated by it because I think, I think the pain is pain comes about by the interaction between the body and the brain or end the mind and as a need to protect us.
00:27:30.03
Speaker
And i I think sometimes we leave one or the other out and I think they're both just equally as important. And I find that sometimes what you hear in my sphere is, you know, you have the people that think that it's that it's all about the body and their and and they're throwing their arguments this way. And then you have the people that think it's all around the mind and the nervous system and they're throwing their arguments this way. And I do truly believe that it's a combination of of both the mind and the body. what You obviously, by by sound speaking to you, you seem to sort of fit into the um
00:28:11.64
Speaker
it's more mind than body group, which are I don't know where I sit on that spectrum, Shane, but I do agree with you that that you know the nervous system is super crucial and that the brain does have a role to play in our thoughts and emotions and feelings and and ideas around it are crucial. I don't know where I sit on that paradigm, but where do you sit and and why? So I probably,
00:28:42.13
Speaker
Yeah, it's it's really good actually to reflect on that because I have you know i have benefited from my approach, but remember my approach.
00:28:53.82
Speaker
always included some element of movement. So I was always, you know, I accept that the nervous system is a feedback loop, top down, bottom up kind of thing. So I'd never just say, you know, it's probably going into the discarding, the base of whether we are should be separating mind and body, because i I think the more you connect, which are what you ah put it together, mind, body,
00:29:23.82
Speaker
the more you realize you can't separate them. So I probably say the mind more often for an explanatory process, but I i appreciate the body. I see the stresses people hold in their body that are created by the mind. I see you know the physical nature of acute pain. And like you said, yeah that has a great role, pain, and it's always a signal to change. and so You know, there's yeah there's this opportunity there that if you accept the signal to change, then you can use your mind to go, okay, well, what change do I need to make that could help me? Yep. Yes, mate, this is, I'm enjoying the conversation because I think, you know, there one of the things that is so true is that you can't split the two. You can't separate the mind and the body.
00:30:17.16
Speaker
and And one proof of this that a lot of people can can understand is the placebo. So the placebo is that idea that you know you give someone a sugar pill versus an active ingredient that that's pain relieving. And both of them have pain relief. Even the person with the placebo or the the the pill that has has no active ingredient in it. And and you know a lot of people think that that that's all about the mind. and and the power the mind plays. But what's interesting is that in that scenario, the thoughts and expectations actually lead to physiological changes in the body. So we see in those studies that there's actually changes within the opioid system.
00:31:04.08
Speaker
as well as if someone sort of took an opioid itself. So this idea that that that your beliefs, your thoughts, your expectations can actually alter and change reality is, and how the body is responding to me is is fascinating.
00:31:21.95
Speaker
yeah You've obviously experienced that. There you go, mate. ah and That's what I love about, um I think it's David Butler who has the danger in me, safety in me. And then when you start to categorize some of your thoughts and beliefs that they're all about danger, I'm like, are you balancing the danger and safety signals in your in your body because if it's all danger, your nervous system is going to be tense all the time and it's going to be hypervigilant and your experience is going to be really tuned into any sensation that could be considered dangerous. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
00:32:09.02
Speaker
for listeners, I think ah an important element of pain is to understand that pain has a protective role. It's the reason we learn not to touch the hot plate when we're growing up or to to try to avoid biting our tongues. And and you know you can actually see kids that don't have pain. um there's There's a condition called congenital insensitivity to pain. You probably learned about it in the Explained Pain book where they i have you know, they chew on their tongue and they, you know, they've got sores and ulcers and all sorts of things because they don't realise that they're doing damage to their body. So pain is really important and it has a protective function. And what you're alluding to, Shane, is that anything that sort of increases that need for protection or for, yeah, for danger,
00:33:01.48
Speaker
a danger response and for us to act will, will increase pain itself. So yeah, it's, it is a, it's a fascinating realm and I don't think it, look, I think what we need to keep in mind is that sometimes that pain is really important. Like if you're having a heart attack, you want to know that that's what's going on and that you need to get to call call an ambulance.
00:33:27.53
Speaker
So we're not at all saying you should ignore all pain. I think that that's that's silly and that's nonsense because it actually has a really vital role for us. But in some circumstances, the pain signal becomes unhelpful. That was obviously, I mean, when you've got a condition like AS, that's the situation. Like the pain signal is no longer serving you. It's no longer helping you. um And I'd love to work out what were your tools to To provide relief, you've mentioned meditation. was Were there any other lifestyle themes, habits, tools that you used?
00:34:11.69
Speaker
Well, the meditation was really important. the The mindful movement and then progressing to yoga. And then I actually trained as a yoga teacher because that had given me so much relief. m Because the bicycle, the static bicycle had been such a relief for me as well. um I got back cycling and then I actually decided to do a cycle trip.
00:34:38.85
Speaker
and across Europe and just cycling every day. And it was one morning on that, that I took my last painkiller that I've ever taken. And that was 10 years ago. I just, I normally would take two or three of these, you know, just standard Voltaren kind of things, just to ease you know, when the pain was 40, 50%, just to have a bit of relief from that. And then I, ah my partner asked me, oh do we need to stop and get more tablets at some point? And then I had forgotten, I had like, I don't think I've taken them in a few days. And which was really interesting because I thought,
00:35:18.44
Speaker
When I finally was you maybe symptom free or pain free, you know, the brass band would come out. It would be a celebration, but it was actually just like there was no noise. You know, there was, yeah if you ever live in a flight path and then the plane stopped for a day, you're just like, oh, this feels different. This is nice. Yeah. That was it. Like it wasn't a big, a big moment, but I look back on it very fondly.
00:35:47.71
Speaker
Yeah, that's amazing. Do you, have you been to your rheumatologist since? I haven't actually, I suppose with the rheumatologist, I, the reluctance initially was that, okay, he's probably gonna, you know, um, you know, what will it be? Will it just be a feedback session where I tell him, Oh, I'm in pretty good nick now. Um, because yeah, I haven't,
00:36:15.55
Speaker
I didn't think his style would be anything more than, what's the next drug I can give you? And that was probably me presuming a few few steps ahead. I do think it would have been nice to close the loop, but but I haven't. Yeah, I guess that's why I was intrigued. I just, you know, was he was he gobsmacked? Was he know surprised? Maybe one day you can feedback that, Shane, or maybe flick in the episode yes Yeah, sure. But one thing I would mention, because you asked about techniques, it was when I was kind of down to that last, you know, and let's say it was fluctuating between one and one and four. What I did was I relearned how to breathe.
00:37:04.87
Speaker
i I started to become very aware of my breathing because a big part of yoga practice is this pranayama where you're controlling the breath, controlling the energy in your body. And I started to notice that i breathe my breathing was quite poor. It was shallow. A lot of it was up around the neck and shoulders. And when I started to learn how to belly breathe,
00:37:28.78
Speaker
And then over an eight week period, that started to become my default style of breathing. And then knowing how breathing influences the nervous system, I was like, wow, this is my opportunity to give like thousands of safety signals to my nervous system every day.
00:37:45.95
Speaker
I monitored it in work, I monitored like even when I was chopping vegetables, I was over concentrating. While I was cycling my bike, I was over concentrating. And that just allowed me to you know move away from this this hypervigilant person to a deeply calm person. And so the meditation, breathwork, yoga, but then the science around pain management kind of all came together.
00:38:12.34
Speaker
And I was now influencing my nervous system and my immune system in really positive ways. That and that meant yeah there was no need for any more painkillers. that they The sensations in my body are always less than the one. I haven't had a flare-up in a long time.
00:38:31.48
Speaker
and I'm very active like and between surfing, rock climbing, cycling, running. and I use that threshold activity from the Explained Pain book to go from like running 400 meters to a few weeks ago i ran 21k so you know i've really you know kept this calm gradual process going with all my endeavors and it and it's it feels really nice and it's paying dividends without stressing out my nervous system which i have to accept is probably a little on the sensitive side
00:39:09.17
Speaker
Yeah. It's amazing. It's an amazing story. And I think someone must be listening that that's convicted, that there is more to the, to their pain symptoms than just the physical body that they, that they're in. I think, you know, cause a lot of people say to me,
00:39:28.61
Speaker
Yeah, I know that some people, it's ah it's a mind thing, and and but no, for me, I have this physical condition, it's X. And and honestly, there's there's no more physical condition than ankylosing spondylitis. So for those that are listening, even something that that is is very physiological and and and a physical condition, like ankylosing spondylitis, the power of Calming the nervous system and the power of that using your mind in recovery is powerful. So thanks for sharing that.
00:40:09.46
Speaker
but Probably one thing I haven't touched on though is the emotional aspect of it all because you know I have you know i the mind and the body, but like I said at the beginning, I was quite a calm person. I just realized that I was an expert at suppressing stress and all other emotions.
00:40:34.54
Speaker
When I started to meditate, I actually became a much more emotional person, but then i was you know I was able to experience my emotions and so they weren't building up. And so a lot of what I saw over you know over the years was actually that I was just suppressing and maybe going more into the the world of Gabor Mathe and these guys that like my emotions and my ability to feel emotions was causing a lot of tension in the body. And this became most pronounced when, you know, I was, there's a silent meditation you do for 10 days. And on day four, this pain erupted behind my shoulder.
00:41:18.79
Speaker
And it got to a level far beyond anything that AS had ever done to me. So I'm thinking like 140% excruciating for three days. And then on the fourth day, I was sitting in meditation. My mind went into that area. This asshole erupted in me.
00:41:40.89
Speaker
shouting at me, angry, bitter. And it was me. And it it showed how much I had hated myself. And when I saw how much I hated myself and said to that said to myself, I can't talk to myself like that anymore. I can't treat myself like that anymore.
00:42:01.22
Speaker
that started to dissolve. And over the next few hours, it went from this like hectic burning into nothing. And so there there is interesting ways, you know, I pretty much would say that the hatred I had for myself, not probably, you know, there's a bit of, I'm not good enough and everyone dislike, you know, through your whole life for different reasons. You know, I got to come face to face with that. And,
00:42:30.72
Speaker
you know, see that it was having a physical impact on my body. So, yeah, in terms of that mind-body connection and that appreciation of what can reside in the body, what can reside in the mind, that was fascinating for me. Yeah, that's insane. Did you say four-day meditation? Tell us what was... It's a ten-day site meditation, but day four to day eight was when that pain erupted.
00:43:01.49
Speaker
Right, and so when did you do this? m Probably five years ago. Yeah, right. I've never heard of, so it's like, how did you find out about this? What made you want to do it? Do you do it with a group of people? Sort of want to learn more about what what particularly this meditation was or did you just decide to do it solo?
00:43:24.95
Speaker
No, it's a it's quite a huge organization. It's called Vipassana. And um you'll laugh. you'll You'll probably hear about it 10 times in the next month. Right. There's a center up in the Blue Mountains. And you just go. You sign up. And yeah, you commit to go in there for 10 days and meditate for pretty much 10 hours each day. And there's a bit of guidance from them. And it's Yeah, Vipassana means insight. And it's about just bringing, getting rid of all the distractions and going deep inside yourself. And you really notice the mind body connection, then the overlap, even notice you, you and the the world around you is way more connected than you ever thought it would be. So it does, it brings you to this place of deep insight. And, then you know, it's very, and
00:44:20.99
Speaker
accessible in terms of they don't charge you anything, they ask for a donation at the end. And pretty much it it sells it like 120 people meditating in the same room, working through their stuff. It's a very inspiring place to be. And there there's there's maybe five, six centers around Australia. Yeah, interesting, interesting. Tell us what is the difference between mindfulness and meditation?
00:44:51.84
Speaker
cause because they can sort of be used interchangeably often. there There is definitely an overlap. Mindfulness would fall under like a meditation practice. I suppose in mindful, you can be mindful outside of meditation, which is the main distinction in that when you bring your awareness to something and sustain it there,
00:45:17.32
Speaker
Yeah, you're you're being mindful rather than mindless. But yeah, the yeah, definitely like that, you know, they're kind of brothers, sisters. Yeah, yeah. I guess in mine the way I think about it um is perhaps that mindfulness is a way of life or a way of being. And meditation is a way of practicing how to how to do that or how to achieve that. Yeah, that's sort of my explanation of it, but everyone seeks. Sorry, you go. And in in meditation, there's loads of mindful moments. And so, yeah, there's there's not really definitions of these things, like still the scientific community struggle to define what our meditation is. But yeah, like in terms of the sensations in your body, if you're
00:46:13.89
Speaker
resting your awareness on them, you're being mindful of them, but the added element of mindfulness is you're not judging them. So mindfulness comes with this non-judgmental sense. Is it a spiritual pursuit for you or is it more like going for a run or doing exercise? Yeah.
00:46:41.73
Speaker
Look, ah I've always been very, like, considered myself very scientific about things. I almost didn't want meditation to work for me at times, because I was like, why is this changing? But then I think we're getting to a place where, you know, the meditation is well researched, it's become an evidence-based practice, so it's quite fascinating. But in terms of spirituality, I'm not Like I know there are many people chasing a deeper meaning and things like that. And I suppose there's a bit of me would like to know more, but I'm just so stoked. I'm not in pain all the time. Like I just relish moving. I relish sleeping well. I relish that like I can pick up my kids. You know, I don't need much more than that at this time. But who says I don't want to understand things
00:47:36.36
Speaker
on a deeper level, but I do feel very connected to my life, and which I really enjoy. Yeah, fascinating. i um For me, particularly, it's definitely more of an exercise rather than a spiritual pursuit. I come, this is probably a bit of a tangent, but I come from a Christian worldview and and I'd still hold that worldview. And for many Christian listeners, meditation sometimes is ah there's a push back to it because they feel like it's ah a bit woo woo and a bit perhaps spiritual but in they sometimes see it in a negative light because the worldview is that there is you know there is good and then that there is evil and and in meditation they they some
00:48:30.18
Speaker
parts of Christianity push back to it a little bit and because they think that it opens you up to some of these evil things. For those people, I can imagine it is a very hard practice to get into a calm state within meditation because you have that sort of appraisal of it that you're opening yourself up to, yeah, evil spirits, I guess.
00:48:55.88
Speaker
It is a big tangent, but that's why I asked you that question. Is it spiritual or is it an exercise? And yeah. Do you have clients, cause I know you i know like do meditation with people. Do you have clients that you, that you practice that with that are from a Christian background and do you see any pushback or any hesitation?
00:49:20.99
Speaker
Yeah, like I grew up in yeah Catholic Ireland, so you know the there was you know that's what I moved through, my sacraments, things like that. I guide a meditation practice on on Sunday nights. A lot of people from Ireland join. A lot of them are religious. There's even a nun that joins. m A lot of my great-grand aunts were nuns.
00:49:46.67
Speaker
So i've I have a deep appreciation for religious beliefs, and but i I don't see any conflict between am your meditation practice because I kind of see it more as just you understanding the nature of your mind.
00:50:04.75
Speaker
And da that's what's been fascinating for me. m yeah none of the like And I treat most religions as actually, you know, I'd call them more philosophies and I kind of go, well, that's interesting what they're doing. That's interesting what these guys are doing. So I don't, yeah, I i haven't felt an overlap. I haven't felt that.
00:50:31.55
Speaker
Yeah, to be worried that any evil spirit is coming in. And then when you look at the neuroscience of what's happening in your mind, you really are just processing information. And, you know, if you take the breath, we all, there's you know, all as humans, you know, if you're just aware of your breath, you're having a mindful moment in the present and we all breathe. So, you know,
00:50:57.67
Speaker
that can be your sole type of meditation your entire life. You've never, you you know, you've never had to put up a statue of anyone to achieve that. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, no, I agree with you. And I wonder, one of the myths that I hear is that meditation is emptying your mind. And and what is, is that good? And the non-judgmental thing as well, just from a Christian worldview, you can be like, well, we need to sort of judge between what's right and what's wrong and what's good and what's light and what's evil. Although despite that, there are you know things that are neither. you know I could like an ice cream um or I could like chocolate ice cream or strawberry ice cream, neither of them are evil. But is is meditation an emptying of the mind? I think far from it. I think yeah
00:51:58.17
Speaker
I think over lot more frequent practice, you feel a bit more of that, but initially it's really just observing what goes through your mind without trying to react with it and get involved in it. And that's what gives you the distance and that you know, really mirrors what you're trying to do with your nervous system if you're in pain is to you know step back from the sensations. And, you know, like you said, you good or bad, can you see them just as information in that moment, in that isolation?
00:52:34.32
Speaker
you know Because you're right, there are things we need to judge. you know there is There's that you know that desire to you know figure out why things happen and why people are the way they are. But I think when you you know you don't want to be spending your whole time judging every single thing that's happening. Save judgment for things that really need to be judged. And when it comes to sensations in your body, if you know you have a certain condition, can you you know that those sensations aren't harmful anymore. They're part of a dysfunctional relationship. So can you now judge them in a different way and then go, okay, well, I don't need to judge them anymore. How does that look? And then play around with withholding your judgment.
00:53:24.23
Speaker
Yeah, that's awesome. and I can think of some of the people that sort of make these comments. And I hope that they listen because it gives a lot more insight around what meditation is and and the practice of it. And I think some of these are are missed, frankly. Tell me What role has self-compassion and not being too critical of yourself, what role has that played in your recovery? Because I think that that's a really important thing for people that are struggling with pain because they often have they often have thoughts that they say to themselves that if they really reflected, they wouldn't say to someone that they love or care about because they're overly critical.
00:54:14.46
Speaker
What role was that played for your experience? Well, because they had that such intense experience in meditation and kind of went, wow, I am this.
00:54:27.33
Speaker
harsh critical asshole and like I don't want to be that person and a big part of why maybe my nervous system can never be at ease is because I'm attacking it with my thoughts and my beliefs about myself and so that really led me on that path of self-compassion and kind of going whoa Shane like things aren't working the way you want them to But you know you need to encourage that change. And to encourage change, you have to be very kind, very supportive, you know almost like you're talking to a small child all the time. Because emotionally, a lot of us are and remain small children our entire lives. So you need to coax behavior.
00:55:11.36
Speaker
rather than, you know, lashing out anger, which were my old styles. You know, that's how I motivated myself with fear. And now I motivate myself through kindness. Yeah. Amazing. Oh, that's, you, you are very well articulated. You, you say those, you know, you, you bring experience into it, but you, you make perfect sense the way you're explaining it. So yeah, appreciate that.
00:55:40.64
Speaker
what What work do you do now with people that are in pain? Yeah, so I have a pain management program I take people on, so a lot of people with autoimmune diseases will come to me and I'll take them through a lot of what we've discussed, regulating the nervous system, changing beliefs about pain, the the pain and science behind it, and then doubling down really on a lot of relaxation techniques and then the emotional component of it.
00:56:13.15
Speaker
you know, am I holding a lot of regret, resentment, things like this that could be, you know, influencing my nervous system, maybe at a subconscious level even, and causing me never to feel at ease. And in addition to that, I'd run like meditation classes, programs, and breath work, and then I do a lot of mindset work. So and A lot of my earliest clients felt so good they're like oh can you do some of those breathing techniques with my team and i started to get into corporate environments organically and now and the majority of my business is actually.
00:56:53.46
Speaker
corporate meditation, breathwork sessions, or mindset programs. So it's been quite fun using you know these techniques that helped me you know change that relationship between nervous system and immune system. But then seeing that so many people are stressed, so many people are overwhelmed, and if they don't have any tools for regulation, that overwhelm only builds. It's very hard to reduce it. Yeah.
00:57:23.94
Speaker
That's awesome work and i I love people that have taken a ah negative experience and sort of recovered from that and are able to then help other people that went through what they went through and using those tools that you've learned along the way. I think that's really powerful and and I love the work that you do. I want to touch on something So a lot of times people come in and they see me in the clinic and, and you know, in some instances, I don't think hands-on treatment is particularly the right approach for them. And we have a conversation and I think the conversation goes really well. And at the end they said, but yeah, you haven't treated me. And and I think of education as treatment.
00:58:16.71
Speaker
What would you say to, like, what would you say to the listeners about the role of education and the role of learning? For you, it was learning about pain science that was so crucial. Yeah, it was like I touched on, it was the pain and science that brought everything together that, and you know, the different things I was doing when you can understand how the nervous system operates, the brain's role in pain, you start to and yeah connect the dots. And I think if if you know i think the the hard thing is a lot of people treat chronic pain and acute pain as the same thing. And because they know, okay, If I pull the muscle in my calf, I should go to the physio. It needs maybe some kind of treatment and then over a few weeks I'll recover. They want that same process for chronic pain. And then you kind of need to shake them a bit and go, no, this is this is not just physical anymore. It's with your nervous system. It's with your mind. And you need a more rounded approach. You'll need physical elements like physios, PTs, EPs helping you, but you'll also need to be aware of yeah your mind, your environment. So probably moving into that biopsychosocial model. And you know it's going to be really hard for people to accept that because they want to go to a doctor and get a pill. Pill doesn't work. I want to get surgery.
00:59:51.16
Speaker
surgery doesn't work, I want to have another one. You know, that's the kind of the way things have been set up. And so it's very you're right, it's very hard for you to get that message across. And sometimes it's knowing, which is a big part of what I do, is knowing that some people aren't ready to receive that message. They're not ready for that change yet.
01:00:13.66
Speaker
but they will have their light bulb moment when they're in a position to handle this. Sadly, it's usually when they're really down on the ground and yeah I don't want people to get that stage and that's why I like the corporate work is going in and go, okay, before you are really ill, you know use these techniques because you need to manage chronic stress. you need to If you're sleeping poorly, that's a red flag. if you're not digesting your food anymore. If you're getting skin issues, these are all red flags that your nervous system's overwhelmed. Please listen to them. Yeah, yeah I've learnt over the years the hard way that some people aren't ready for certain things because you know my passion and my you know
01:01:02.65
Speaker
um My eagerness to help people sometimes leads me to be overzealous when I'm communicating these kind of things. And some people, like you say, aren't aren't ready for them, which which is a shame. um Yeah, i I do a online course because I studied with, well, I did the post-grad in pain science down at you University of South Australia with Laura Bemosley. So I've delved into the science around pain.
01:01:33.11
Speaker
Quite a bit. At uni, just for just for a bit of context, I think at uni, as a physio, you probably get about, I'd say 10 hours, roughly, of pain science education. And if you can compare that to what you get around the body and pathologies and that, its it is very little. But yeah, going down and doing that course with him, who who wrote the book that sort of started you on that journey has been pretty transformative. And I ah do it,
01:02:01.97
Speaker
online class now called Learn More, Hurt Less. and you know you experience that some of the Some of the experiences that people have and the transformations that they have through that that is is amazing. um like A lot of them go on to sort of become clients of mine outside of that course because their world opens up to to some of the options that they have for treatment.
01:02:29.76
Speaker
And I think it is just so crucial to learn why things hurt and why, why we hurt. Because, you know, if you want to build a house, what do you do? You learn about building a house. For some reason though, when, when, when you learn how to, if you want to learn how to manage pain, not many people think that they should learn about pain. And it's, it's fascinating.
01:02:55.85
Speaker
but it's the the cultural norms that we're in and hopefully that's shifting and your story may help to do that. Are you are you seeing it shifting just that even clinician wise, your cohort, the people you studied with, like did they did other physios have the appetite to do that pain management course that you did? like Is it popular?
01:03:22.04
Speaker
Yeah, for sure. It's definitely shifting. It's definitely shifting. I think that the problem with it is, I think the barriers to it are incentives. Honestly, like if I had to boil it down to it, it's all about, unfortunately, if you scare the crap out of people and you give them a course of treatment that's going to provide short term relief and and you you hone in on and on their absolute need for you,
01:03:52.27
Speaker
you tend to get recurring clients and and make good money. And unfortunately, I think that, look, this is, I say this hesitantly because I don't want people to think that I'm saying all clinicians are like this because most people, clinicians are very well-intended. But there just does seem, and then top on top of that incentive that you seem to make money out of out of that approach where you sort of develop this need for you as a clinician um and yeah yeah you kind of put the fear of God in them if they don't do it. On top of that, you have the client or the patient's expectations when they're coming in that physio looks a certain way and that usually involves some hands-on treatment.
01:04:45.70
Speaker
and so You combine those and I think that there's those there's a bias to sort of not delve into the science around pain because because of that. And it's tricky, it's hard because, yeah, people have their own beliefs and expectations when they come and see you and shifting those beliefs and and opening up new ideas is really, really challenging work. It's probably the hardest thing. I lose a lot of clients.
01:05:17.42
Speaker
because I can't with integrity yeah buy into their ah philosophies and and look I've wrestled with this a little bit and sometimes I um i do sort of ah I just can't lie to them i just and so I don't become the clinician that they want to see because they they think that their pelvis is out of alignment and that needs to be pushed back in or that their You know, there's a number of ideas that they have and they're just adamant that that's the thing that needs to happen. And so, yeah, unfortunately sometimes you lose clients by being a person of integrity and trying to sort of shift them in a direction that you feel will provide. And I've got to... Long-term. Yeah, provide long-term. I've left a tank of physio.
01:06:10.59
Speaker
I have to thank a physio who just kind of put his hands up and went, I'm not the person to treat you. This book, this information will do more for you than I can. And so, you know, I appreciate like him who stepped outside of that model. And you know, it's worth your listeners knowing that this pain management science, it's known at the highest levels of our Medicare system or if you're in England, the NHS or wherever you are, it's all known. It just hasn't really filtered down to levels. And then you can understand that when someone sets up a clinic, you know, that clinic model is you need people coming through the door on a consistent basis, you have to fill your clinic.
01:06:57.86
Speaker
So yeah, it it is at odds, but I'm glad, like, yeah, you you have a course, Larmer Mosley and David Butler are great guys in that, you know, the way they communicate about these things is very accessible. Yeah.
01:07:13.50
Speaker
If you ever talk to them, tell them to reprint the book because I need to give it to lots of people. Yeah, so you're right. yeah i think I think you will struggle. I'm kind of lucky that I sit outside in a medical model and I can offer this support and potentially healing to people from from a different a different model that that works for me. and So I'm kind of,
01:07:39.65
Speaker
I don't have to face the same frustrations as you, but I also, sadly, I see people when they're way further down the track. And so the the path outwards is a lot longer as well. Yeah, for sure. fish ah Question. How many times did you see that physio? Once.
01:08:02.08
Speaker
And how much? yeah and how I went back to drop the book back.
01:08:08.10
Speaker
how many How much money did you spend? Probably 120 bucks or something. it It was about that, yeah. And then you can think, like if you think about that, and then you think about the fact that choosing a path that with less integrity, that person could have probably had you come back five or six times at least.
01:08:32.85
Speaker
Like this is the problem is unfortunately in healthcare, we're not incentivized by outcome. We're not rewarded by outcome. We're rewarded by frequency of care. And yeah, that's just an error of the system, which is a shame. Yeah.
01:08:53.18
Speaker
take a deep breath and we'll we'll try to finish on a more positive note.
01:09:00.77
Speaker
No, as a small business owner, it does have you scratching your head sometimes and pulling your hair out at at times, but that's just the nature of the beast. And like like you say, it is shifting and and it is changing and it just takes a while to for that to happen.
01:09:19.33
Speaker
what would your What would your advice be for someone that's sort of in a dark place right now? Or you could speak to your sort of younger self when you're going through a really hard time with pain and and the loss of function and the despair that comes with that. What would you tell Shane if you could talk to him at say 24 or five?
01:09:47.69
Speaker
yeah m Yeah, so that guy who was yeah really struggling to move and in a lot of agony, he probably he probably needed to know that you know you can't outsource this. like You can't just yeah go to a doctor, a specialist. It's like this comes back to you quite a lot and there was In that way, it was a gift because I you i had to look look at myself, look inside myself, look at how I'm operating, and especially look at my thoughts, beliefs, my values. And I suppose when you're so down, you're less, well, I was less inclined to be fixed-minded about those things. I was open to anything that would work. And like i am I tried a lot of
01:10:45.97
Speaker
Yeah, things that you know wasted a lot of money on me as well and had no, maybe didn't fit in the model of the the the pain science or the biopsychosocial system, but you're desperate. But I think it was just to not think the progress will be quick. Like don't get disheartened by how long it takes, but if you keep doing the right things well,
01:11:15.58
Speaker
If you understand that your mind-body relationship is very powerful and influenced in good solid ways, you you will start to see results and you probably need to learn all the lessons that you're being challenged with. They're definitely there for a reason and the more you can lean into those challenges,
01:11:39.56
Speaker
the the the bigger you'll grow through that process so like my my condition is definitely a gift at this point so I wouldn't wish it on anyone but I am over the moon I've had it because of who it's made me become yeah amazing Well, we'll leave it there because I think that's a great way to to finish. But thank you so much for coming on and and for giving up some of your time to share your story. I'm sure it'll help someone listening, so I appreciate it.
01:12:13.96
Speaker
Yeah, and thanks and thanks for you know getting the work of and Mosley and Butler are out there for that style of them communication of pain science, because it might not happen like it's so fast, but it will the tide will turn because people are desperate for answers. You've heard how learning about pain played a pivotal role in Shane's recovery.
01:12:42.99
Speaker
That is why I created Learn More, Hurt Less, an interactive group online pain course that teaches pain science to help people manage their pain. Click the link in the show notes to join the emailing list so that you can keep up to date with when the next cohort is. And as a bonus, you'll get a free ebook about pain so that you can start learning today.